Grandparent Camp!

I first heard about grandparent camp at a symposium that I attended in 2015 on the stages of adult faith formation. This particular workshop was focused on mature adults, the life stage that falls in between middle age and older adulthood. In many ways, mature adults are struggling to find a place in faith communities. This is in part because this is an emerging life stage–people used to move straight from middle age to older adulthood. When we sat down early this spring to talk about these folks who are part of our faith community at SMPC, I brought the idea up, and everyone agreed it was worth pursuing.

My first step was to gather my cadre of grandparents to help me plan. These meetings were some of the most joyful I’ve ever attended in over two decades of attending church committee meetings! My council of grandmas provided wisdom, guidance, and lots of laughter along the way. We decided we needed six components: worship, literature, games, art, snack, legos, and mission. We selected our theme: LOVE GOD, and we narrowed our focus for each day.

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Bible Recommendations

The question I get asked the most, both in church and among parent friends, is what Bible I recommend. I love so many Bibles, so I’ll be doing a little blog series on my favorite Bibles for children, youth, and adults. We’ll start with younger children. Here are my top three for younger children.

The Spark Story Bible (birth-1st or 2nd grade)

This is hands down my favorite children’s Bible. If you only have one children’s Bible at home, I would recommend that it be this one. The blue version, pictured and linked, is for families, while the one with the orange cover is for Sunday School classrooms. Personally, I spent the extra $3 to have the classroom one at home because it has the most stories of any children’s story bible I’ve seen.

What I love: The images are fun and relatable, as well as ethnically diverse.  The theology underpinning their interpretations is sound, and there is an emphasis on God’s love, as well as what questions or activity suggestions at the end of each story to “Spark” conversation or action based on the story. Sound effects are included, and the text captures the attention of children across various age spans, as well as explains complicated Biblical concepts in an age-appropriate way.

Children of God Storybook Bible (all ages)

Each story in this Bible is just two pages, which makes it perfect for reading aloud with a group of children. The words were written by Archbishop Desmond Tutu with an emphasis on God’s love for us and God’s desire for us to love one another. He writes this about the illustrations, “In the spirit of celebrating children all over the world, each illustrator in this book has been invited to draw on their own unique and rich cultural heritage in their portrayal of these Biblical stories. Their art is truly a marvelous reflection of how we are all made in God’s image.”

What I love: the art, the words, the short prayers included at the end of each story, and that these stories can be read in just a couple of minutes at bedtime.

The Jesus Storybook Bible (about 4 years old through older elementary)

This Bible is written from a slightly different perspective and views every Bible story through the lens of God’s plan of salvation from the beginning. For this reason, I do not recommend this as your primary children’s Bible, but I really like the perspective it offers. The author frequently refers to Jesus as the Rescuer who is coming, even in the Old Testament stories. She calls the Pharisees “Extra-Super-Holy-People” and uses language that helps children grasp some of the background of what’s going on in the stories. There are some more complex concepts in this Bible, and the stories are long, so I wouldn’t use it with very young children.

What I love: the illustrations, the explanations about the motivations of various characters, the theme of how “The Rescuer” is coming, and how “everything sad is coming untrue!”

Honorable Mention: The Rhyme Bible

I’m giving this one an honorable mention because it rhymes, it stays pretty true to the Bible, and it has quite a few stories in it. It’s fun to read and engaging even for the youngest children. All that said, all the people are pretty light-skinned, and obviously when you translate every story into a rhyme, it loses something. This one is worth keeping on the shelf, but it wouldn’t be my primary, or even secondary Bible for young children.

I hope this has been helpful! Check back next week for my suggestions for older kids.

Dear Pregnant Me

There are several beautiful, pregnant women in my life right now. I was thinking about having a newborn recently, and I thought about what I would say to myself in those last few weeks of pregnancy, when I was scared and excited and in awe. Here’s what I came up with.

Dear Momma,
During all of those sleepless nights, I know you are vacillating between pure joy and sheer terror. You are so excited to meet your precious baby, but you are nervous that you will not know what to do with her when she arrives. Here is what I want you to know: you are enough. Yes, you. In fact, you are more than enough. God chose you to be her mother, not the author of that book everyone is telling you to read, not the pediatrician, not that mom you saw in the grocery store who looks like she has all the right answers.

When your baby is new, you will question yourself all the time. Is she eating enough? Am I talking to her enough? Should I be reading out loud instead of washing these dishes? Should I be holding her instead of letting her lie there quietly? Should I be letting her have tummy time instead of soaking up these snuggles? Am I doing this right? Am I enough?

And here is what I want you to remember: you are enough. You know what to do.

There are a lot of experts these days. There are experts on health, parenting, food, education, car seats, and everything you could possibly think of for infants. But here is what you need to remember about these experts. They know a lot about babies, and it is important to read and be knowledgeable so you can make good decisions, but nobody else (except dad, of course) knows about YOUR baby.

There is going to be a moment, probably sometime in the first year, when you are sitting in a doctor’s office and you know that the doctor is wrong. Maybe your baby is fine, and the doctor isn’t sure, or maybe the doctor believes your baby is fine, but you know something is wrong. In this moment, remember that you are the mother, and your voice is important.

You know your child in a way that no one else ever will. Don’t let other people’s voices crowd out your instincts. There will be so many people with so many helpful suggestions. Smile and nod, and then trust your gut. Use what works and let the rest go.

Every child is different, every mother is different, every family is different, and what works for one situation does not universally apply. Be gentle with yourself when your expectations don’t line up with reality, and allow yourself to change your plan for feeding, sleeping, childcare, etc. without guilt or second-guessing yourself. You made those plans before you met your baby, and mothering is a relationship between two people.

Allow yourself to experience the joy of learning about this little person with whom God has gifted you. You have imagined a little girl who is a lot like you were, but the little girl that you have is different from you in ways you could not possibly have thought. She is loud where you were quiet, outgoing where you were reserved, intense where you were even-tempered, curly-headed where you were straight-haired, and spunky where you were nervous. But you share compassion, a love of climbing, a weakness for snuggling, a passion for imaginative play, and an obsession with books. You will learn more from her than you will teach her, precisely because of your differences. She defies all of your expectations, and so your plan is not what you thought it would be. This is good. She is teaching you a whole lot about to live in the moment and appreciate the little things and not focus so much on the plan.

So, have fun. Trust yourself. You are not a perfect mom, and she is not a perfect child, but you are perfect for each other. This will be the hardest and most rewarding thing you will have done yet. You can do it.

Love, Rebecca

P.S. Get the Happiest Baby on the Block DVD. Because ain’t nobody got time to read a book when you are holding a crying baby who has been screaming for two hours.

P.P.S. Post-partum depression is a real thing. So is post-partum anxiety, though it is less talked about. If you think you may be suffering from either, tell one person in your life who will walk you through the steps of getting the help you need, even if you have to ask a lot of people. Ob-gyns, pediatricians, and even counselors are often woefully unhelpful in this area. Have this person be responsible for making you keep asking until you get help.

Seamless Faith

Dear CCE Parents,
A few months ago, I posted a picture of my two-year-old daughter, Clara, on Facebook. She had taken her nativity and Noah’s ark playsets and mixed them all up, so that the angel of the Lord was standing on top of the ark. I captioned it, “And the angel said unto them, ‘You better get on the ark!’” It was funny, and she’s cute, so I got a lot of “likes.” I commented later that I was “crushing this whole teaching biblical literacy thing,” which I probably thought was wittier than it was.

But later, I was reflecting more about how we bring faith into our home. Even though I joked about it on facebook, I struggle with this a lot. I feel like we do a pretty good job of reading Bible stories and praying and worshiping together, but what I had really been seeking and having trouble finding was a way to honor and nurture the inherent spirituality of our child. Because biblical literacy and knowing how to pray are foundational and necessary, but they are not sufficient. What I really wanted was a way to invite God into her everyday moments and her difficult moments and her big celebrations and her understanding of who she is.

And I feel like this is the one struggle of faithful parents that is common among parents of kids of all ages. Ok, maybe one of many, because parenting is hard, friends. But it’s a really big one.
So then I discovered this new book by Traci Smith titled Seamless Faith: Simple Practices for Daily Family Life, and I have to say that it is hands down the easiest and most practical book I have ever read on this subject. Smith divides her book into three sections: traditions, ceremonies, and spiritual practices. Each section provides several scripts to use for those moments, everyday, difficult, and celebratory alike. There are ideas for holiday traditions and suggestions about what to do with a kid struggling with anxiety. There’s one for getting a license and one for a toddler’s bedtime. There is even a family ceremony to use after a divorce. In all, there are fifty practices, so surely some of them will work for your family.

I’m inviting you to do this with me, because I want to try some of her ideas and I want to talk about how they work with other parents. And I know I’m a lot more likely to do it if I’m part of a group that’s doing it together. The only homework is to try one or two ideas a week and report back, so the only reading is a few intro pages and then reading over the practices you are interested in trying. So sign up on CCE Online or just show up (though, I’d like to have enough books, so please try to sign up), and let’s do this together for five Wednesdays, 6:30-7:30, starting February 25th in Room 207.

Blessings to you,
Rebecca

Church

Dear Clara,

Yesterday, when you woke up from your nap, you were in a funk to say the least. I knew we needed to leave soon for the youth group kickoff concert at church, so I tried to entice you with your favorite things to help improve your mood before we left.

I asked you if you wanted a snack. “No!”

Water? “No!”

To color? “No!”

Play with your baby dolls? “No!”

Do puzzles? “No!”

Finally, exasperated, I said, “Clara, we have to go to church soon, so let’s find something you want to do!”

You promptly jumped up from your Emmy-worthy-facedown-on-the-floor-tantrum position and ran into the kitchen. I followed you, thinking you wanted some watermelon. With tears still streaked on your face, a mess of post-nap curly hair, and wearing pajamas that had a little bit of your lunch on the shirt, you handed me your shoes and said, “Let’s go!”

I thought I would call your bluff. I was not even certain that you knew what church was. “Ok,” I countered, “but if you really want to go to church, you have to get dressed and let me fix your hair.” You said, “Ok, mommy. Flower pants!”

And so, a few minutes later, with a sock monkey in your arms and your flower pants on your bottom, we were off.

When we got there, you took a little bit of time to warm up and spent a lot of times in my arms with your head pressed into my shoulder, smiling at people while keeping your distance, but by the time we were sitting in the café at the pre-event meeting, you were ready to get down and run around and even threw in some giggles for good measure.

But then the middle school girls arrived, and you were entranced. They tried to teach you how to hula hoop, and they showed you how to play corn hole, and then they let you sit with them for dinner. And in between bites of scarfing down your hot dog bun, you looked up at me, smiling so hard that you were laughing a little bit, and said, “Church, mommy!”

Yes, little wise one, that picnic table full of cool older girls loving an almost-two-year-old is the church.

And then you kept saying it all night long. “Yay, church! Happy, church!”

You pointed at your big cousin, who was there with his band to lead worship all the way from Georgia, and said to me, “John! Church!” And yes, baby, he is the church too.

Even after you gave yourself a nice, big shiner on your cheek, which we knew was inevitable because of the intensity of your excitement, you sat in the parking lot with the ice pack pressed up against your face grinning from ear to ear because, “Church!”

You got it again. Church is when we help each other up after we fall down.

Soon after the concert started, Daddy and I decided that it was time for you to leave, because it was loud, and your ears are small, and you were rubbing your eyes like you do when it is close to bedtime and time for little girls to go home. And I was walking with you two to the car to tell you goodbye, and you started singing a song from the concert in the parking lot with bleary but twinkling eyes. And I kissed you goodbye, and you whispered to me, with that perfect mixture of exhaustion and joy, “Church, mama.”

And you are right. Singing and having fun together is church too.

Last night, I thought a lot about what you said. How being an MCFK (Minister of Christian Formation’s Kid) is like all of the glory of being a PK without anybody talking about you from the pulpit, and how church is like home to you, and how it is an amazing blessing that you have this village of people who call you their child and love and take care of you. And how amazing it is for your dad and me to witness and be a part of all of this. My heart was so full, the way it gets sometimes when it is full of more gratitude than I think it can hold.

This morning, when you woke up, you looked like a mess. Your cheek is black and blue, and your eyes were puffy. And I laid you down on the changing table, and you said, “Church,” with a wistful look on your face, remembering last night, because when God speaks to me, I always get a lot of confirmation.

Yesterday I learned all over again that the greatest gift of being a parent is seeing the world through your eyes. You know, when you are really close to something, sometimes you stop being able to see how beautiful it is, but you showed me again. Church, baby girl. Church! Yay, church!

Love, Mama

Why I Do Make My Daughter Share

There’s a really popular article going around facebook entitled, “Why I Don’t Make My Son Share.” I have to admit, I had a visceral reaction to the title, which is obviously the intent. So I read it, hoping that I would feel differently, that the author had a point of view that might challenge me or change my mind. On certain points, I actually do agree with her. But I think there is a middle way.

Here’s where we agree: I do not think an effective way to teach a child to share is to effectively rip a toy out of her hands and hand it to another child just because he wants it.

Here’s where we disagree: I don’t think the solution is just to let her continue to play with it indefinitely either, to the point of saving it during potty breaks, etc.

The problem with the first way is that it doesn’t respect the first child, and the problem with the second way is that it doesn’t respect the second child.

I would argue that there is a way to respect both children, even if it doesn’t make them happy.

Generally speaking, I let Clara decide if she wants to share something that is hers when we are in public. Often, she does. Sometimes, she doesn’t. That’s ok.

Communal equipment, however, is an entirely different story, and equating sharing a public toy car to someone walking up and grabbing one of your personal belongings just doesn’t work.

Last night, we were at the park near our house, which only has two swings. Neither were occupied, and so Clara began swinging. After a little while, another boy came along and began to swing next to her. After Clara had been swinging a good fifteen minutes or so, a third child arrived. He wanted to swing, so I told Clara we had a few more minutes, and then she would need to do something else. I gave her time to adjust to this idea, and after a couple of minutes, she gave up the swing willingly to go slide.

It doesn’t always go like that. Sometimes, even after some transition time, she might throw a tantrum, but I’m ok with that. Just as she has to learn that she can’t go grab someone’s personal belongings, and that other people can’t grab hers, she also has to learn that communal equipment has different rules than personal belongings. This applies to adults as well. Ever been to a gym where all the treadmills are full? How about eaten at a crowded restaurant when there were people waiting on tables? Been in an express line behind someone with 678 items?

Children aren’t born understanding rules and manners. They have to be taught and modeled. Of course Clara doesn’t want to get out of the swing, just like I don’t want to rush my meal with friends. But if there are people waiting behind you, it is basic human decency to “give them a turn,” especially after you have enjoyed the use of something for an appropriate amount of time.

I am finding it difficult to navigate this parenting thing, especially as a Christian, and there is no more murky area than instilling self-confidence while teaching humility and respect, but I can’t believe that letting my child use something indefinitely while another child waits is teaching her anything except that her desires are more important than the other child’s. Yeah, maybe that other kid is learning patience, but it’s not my job to teach other kid. My job is to teach the one that I have, and I hope that she learns that it is important to respect others, just because they are people.

Newtown

This post was written for a personal blog for my 2 month old daughter. But, I thought it might be pertinent here too. Blessings, Rebecca

Dear Clara,

I was planning to finally update the blog this weekend. I was going to finally write about Thanksgiving and post pictures of you in your many Christmas outfits. Somehow, that doesn’t seem like the right thing to do.

I hope that by the time you read this, you will know what happened at Newtown, and that it hasn’t become so commonplace a thing that Newtown is just one in a string of episodes of indescribable violence. I hope that it doesn’t feel normal and that we haven’t become desensitized to utter tragedy.

For the past few days, I’ve spent a lot of time holding you, baptizing your soft head with the tears I’ve wept for those parents who will never hold their sweet babies again. I’ve prayed and watched the news and read the news stories about the heroic teachers. I’ve talked about it with family and friends, none of us being able to find the words to describe the unspeakable horror and what it means to live in a world where something like this could happen. I can’t even imagine how it would be to wake up one day to an empty bed where you used to sleep, and I think about those mommas and daddies all day long.

Yesterday, we took you to the children’s Christmas pageant at church, and I gave thanks the whole hour for all the beautiful children in that room. Singing their hearts out on the stage and watching intently from the floor in the aisles and sitting on their parents laps and standing up in the chairs for a better view. All those little minds and bodies and spirits with futures as wide open as the sky. And I wondered why, in heaven’s name, do we get to be the people who are sitting at a Christmas pageant instead of waiting for news at a fire house this weekend. I asked God to keep all of you safe and to help you be the people who will change our world for the better.

Clara, there are a lot of things that I could say. I could talk about gun control or our mental health care system. And those are worthy conversations, ones that are important for your future and ones that we need to have.

But that’s not my area of expertise, and so I’ll talk about what I know.

I won’t pretend to be an expert on God, but if I didn’t talk about faith now, mine sure wouldn’t be worth much. And if you don’t wonder where God is when children die, then I haven’t done my job to pass it on to you.

I’ve thought a lot about where God is in the past couple of days. Indeed, it sometimes seems like a Godless world. And there are all these posts going around facebook about how God isn’t in our schools anymore because we told him to leave.

But those are lies. Nobody can tell God to leave. God is so much bigger than that.

And so, where was God?

God was wiping away the tears of terrified children.

God was giving courage to the teachers who performed incredible acts of valor.

God was welcoming Dawn, Victoria, Mary, Anne Marie, Rachel, and Lauren with the words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

God was gathering up and holding twenty little babies because God has the biggest arms ever.

God was steadying the hands and strengthening the hearts of the first responders.

God was giving words to the men and women who had to tell parents that their children were not coming home.

God was working in the hearts of the nation, giving us compassion for people we will never know.

But I think more than anything else, God was and is weeping with us. God is mourning with the parents of those twenty little kids. God is wailing because the children are no more.

Because next week, we will celebrate the God who comes.

That’s what is different about our God. God comes to us as a baby and lives among us as a child. God loves us like a father and a mother. God walks with us through our darkest hours and celebrates even our smallest moments of light.

Our God comes.

God with us. Weeping with us, laughing with us, singing with us.

Immanuel.

And in that, there is hope.

Love, Momma

The Way We’ve Always Done It

Last Tuesday, I forgot my lunch. Then staff meeting went long (which is actually pretty unusual), and in the end, I had about 25 minutes to get lunch, get back to the church, and eat before I had to leave to tutor. I approached Wendy’s (the Baja Salad is great!) and immediately started to park my car even though there was nobody at all in the Drive-Thru.

Why?

Well, there’s a really good reason. I almost parked because I always park.

And I wish I could tell you that it’s because I have some principle against drive-thrus. That I believe one should have to walk inside and slow down. Or that I think it’s wasteful to use the gas to sit there (which it can be, if the line is long). But the truth is not either of those things.

I always park because I used to have a broken driver’s side window motor.

It was fixed in July of last year after it failed inspection.

Now, I don’t go to the drive-thru often. Probably not even once a month.

But still. That was 7 months ago. And I paid a solid $300 to be able to use that window.

Why am I telling you about my window? Because I think we get caught up in this pattern so easily in the church. The nature of congregational work means that it is passed down from one person to another.

And it means that they way we are doing things might not be the best way. It’s just the way that we do them.

So this year, at Christ Church, we’re looking to try things a new way. We are trying not to do things a certain way because we used to have a broken window. We’re inspecting our structure to see if it works for who we are now and for who God is calling us to be. We’re hoping to add some more staff to help us (all of us) live more faithful lives rooted in a deeper spirituality. We’re going to break out of old patterns that don’t fit and try on new ones that reflect our understanding of how we live into God’s kingdom here and now.

But before we can do all of that, we really need to hear your voice. Yes, your voice. You, sitting behind that computer screen or holding that smartphone. Especially now, parents of nursery, preschool, and elementary aged kids are an important part of the conversation about where we’re headed. There was a day in September when 30% of those gathered to worship were 10 years old or younger. On a normal Sunday, it’s around 25%. Do you know what a rare and special gift that is? Come to a listening session so we can hear you.

And we need to hear from your children, too. No one has to convince me of the value of the dreams of children. Bring them to the listening sessions too. They’ll see things that we’ve forgotten to see. They’ll remind us of the possibilities that exist with our great, great God, and they won’t be afraid to dream too big. They’ll consider constructing an amusement park. They’ll imagine an outdoor arena for Christian rock concerts on our property. They’ll ask us to build a shelter for the homeless in our backyard.

Come on. Let’s go!

Grace and Peace, Rebecca

P.S. Make sure to sign up: http://www.christchurchrichmond.com/christchurch21

P.P.S. I was not paid to advertise Wendy’s Baja Salad. But maybe I should have been.

Thinking Orange: Set a Goal

So, I did it.

This morning, I registered for the Patrick Henry Half Marathon on Saturday morning. I may be the slowest person in the race, but that’s ok. My goal isn’t about time, it’s about distance. I just want to finish the race.

And, although I only officially registered for the race this morning, I really began training in April.

Well, really, I guess I began training a few years ago when I started running. I was a pretty casual runner for a long time–going 4 months and running 3 to 4 miles a few times a week. Then in January I joined the 10K training team and realized that with a goal, I was considerably more committed. Crossing those training runs off my calendar with a big purple marker gave me considerable joy. Crossing the finish line on race day felt awesome.

So, after the 10K I decided I needed another goal, and that’s when half marathon training entered the picture.

Folks, I have run 10 miles (ok, I had to walk a couple of minutes) TWICE.  10 slow miles, but 10 miles nonetheless.

I have all the requisite battle scars that runners get. I’ve had a bloody toe from not cutting my toenails fast enough. I’ve almost lost a toenail. I’m pretty sure there is something growing out of the side of my big toe on my left foot, and I’m truly too embarrassed to get a pedicure because I feel it would inflict unneccessary harm on the person giving it. I’ve got tan lines on my legs and arms. I have moved social events to accommodate my long runs and gotten up obscenely early to get them in when it was really not.

After 8 months of legitimate training, I am ready for the race. I am in far better shape than I think I have ever been in my life, and it all started with a

GOAL.

This morning, I was thinking about how to explain to folks why we’re making so many changes to Kids’ Quest, and as someone with a hobby is wont to do, I naturally gravitated to an analogy about running.

We started with the goal and worked backwards.

Our goal is for your kids to become faithful adults who give of their time, talents, and treasure to serve Christ as lifelong disciples. This is what we believe that God desires for your children as well.

Then, we had to work backwards.

This is what my training plan looks like:

It includes long, slow runs, short runs, cross training, weight lifting, stretching, and rest. This plan tells me how to reach my goal. It starts at the end and works backwards. It’s not the tools, it’s not the goal–it’s the strategy.

That’s what we’re doing with this new format for Kids’ Quest. We are looking ahead to what we ultimately want for your children and working backwards.

And we believe that this format provides the strategy to get there.

More on that later this week…

Blessings, Rebecca

My Council of Elders. Or, the Importance of Intergenerational Relationships

Erin. John. John (a different one). Henry. Margie. My Mammy. Jim. Kevin. Barry. Olin. Jan.

These are just some of the people in my life who are older than me. Some are old enough to be my grandparents (and one is!). Some are only old enough to be my older sibling. Some are in between–maybe old enough to be my aunt or uncle.

They have one thing in common: they have all imparted wisdom at an important juncture in my life.

Erin encouraged me to use gifts I didn’t know that I possessed.

John saw a calling when I didn’t.

The other John I count as a very dear friend, almost a grandfather to me, who will always be a listening ear and will always, always check in with me about my spiritual life.

Henry is a dear professor who I can always count on for keen insight about my vocation.

Margie is an excellent advisor on all things, both personal and vocational.

My Mammy is quite possibly the kindest person and best example of a Christian life I have ever known, whose door is always, and has always been, open for her grandchildren.

Jim is a fantastic college professor who opened my eyes to the beauty of literature and always has the best one-liners.

Kevin is another fantastic college professor who helped me wrestle with my faith, but maybe more importantly, helped me through the most difficult week of my college years, when my family was in crisis, and I had finals.

Barry and Olin are ministers under whom I worked. Both are men of vision and integrity, and gave me wisdom in both of those areas.

Jan is a trusted Christian Education mentor who sought me out and spent time with me even when she was busy.

Did you notice that none of these people are my parents? That’s not because my parents aren’t important (I know that I’ve written about each of them individually); it’s because every kid/adolescent/young adult needs adults in their life that are imparting the same values as their parents.

Some of us on the staff are reading Think Orange, and in it, Reggie Joiner posits five things that every kid needs. One thing is:

Another voice saying the same things parents say.

I was listening to a podcast recently by another children’s minister, and he shared what this has meant for his family.

He and his wife have already chosen these voices for their children. He is not leaving them up to chance. They are already actively forming relationships with his young children, so that when they get to be teenagers, they will already have responsible adult mentors who don’t have to start from scratch with them.

I wonder what it would look like for you to do that. Who would you ask? How would you ask them?

Blessings, Rebecca